What is legacy in business for those in leadership roles?
What does it look like, and how do business owners go about building a legacy?
These were just some of the questions on the agenda in a video conversation, as Kath Parker and Andrew Dore approached retirement from Wellers. True to their time throughout their careers, their answer focussed not on themselves but instead the very foundation of the firm itself. In essence their priority, as it always has been, was for the greater good.
As you will see in the video, for Kath and Andrew legacy was all about maintaining and continuing the environment, beliefs, and behaviours that have served us so well over the last 8 decades. So whilst there was plenty of nostalgia as they looked back on their careers, it was with an emphasis that the ethos behind what they had learnt, the things they had brought in and developed, and the people they had helped and advised, would continue long beyond their time at our firm.
The emphasis being better times weren't in the past, but in the future by looking forward through the right lens. Their combined 71 years of helping clients and staff means we've said goodbye to 2 legends of the firm. Words may simply not suffice for all that they have contributed, and the amazing impact they have had on so many of us. We really can't thank them enough, and are eternally grateful. To quote Dr. Seuss:
'Don't cry because it is over, smile because it happened'
For leaders, legacy in business is the impact they have on the organisation not just during their tenure, but long after it is over. It is what they leave behind, what is passed on in terms of the culture and values, that then enables their successors to advance the purpose of the organisation, and build further progress towards its vision.
Much of this depends on the aspirations and goals of leaders and their businesses, and whether decision making is designed for the long-term. This may then for example, build in some form of social impact and responsibility, in terms of how the business impacts and contributes to society, and in turn, how it is perceived.
Ask yourself, what will your leadership legacy be? What do you want to be remembered for? How will you plan and implement it? There will undoubtedly be many barriers to making this happen with the usual day-to-day tasks and pressures. Matters of urgency, and time constraints, can often get in the way of the most important things that don't necessarily have a hard deadline.
As the videos demonstrate however, is there really anything more important then what lives on beyond you?
Chris Thompson (CT):
Welcome folks to another episode of 'Beyond the Numbers'. I'm your host Chris Thompson and today is a massive day, a huge day, because I'm joined by two legends of our firm. It's a slightly sad day because alas they are leaving us to retire. So, I have former managing partner, Kath Parker on one side and a former legendary partner Andrew Dore on the other folks how are you feeling Kath, I'll go to you first?
Kath Parker (KP):
Not sad exactly but I would say quite reflective and yeah a little bit, a little bit sad, I would say but spent the whole of the last few months sort of looking back meeting lots of clients, catching up with staff, and I just wonder where the last 32 years have gone? In a Flash is the answer it's yeah it's been quite the week.
CT:
Andrew, how do you feel? You've been around a little bit longer than Kath, Just a few just short of 40 years, your timing on that's appalling Andrew!
Andrew Dore (AMD):
I don't really recognize dates in that way, I'm I'm feeling more sad than anything else, it hasn't really fully struck home I don't think. Then I had someone earlier that had a problem for something that should have been quite a quick job. I thought actually I won't miss that sort of thing.
CT:
I thought you're going to say I'm still of use, so I'll stick around, you obviously need my help!
AMD:
No, none of that, I will still be around.
KP:
He's going to be Mr consultant.
CT:
Very good, and so are you right, Kath?
KP:
Oh no yeah, we both are.
CT:
Well I'll take you back, we'll bounce around probably a bit, but I'll take you back Andrew to 1983. So this is when you joined Wellers. What had you been doing prior to 83 briefly?
AMD:
So I've been at college for three years, studying accountancy.
CT
Very good, relevant degree. Can you remember what was the top box of this film of 1983? Does that ring any bells, did you watch it?
AMD:
Probably did but it certainly doesn't ring any bells.
KP:
I'm Googling as we talk.
CT:
Kath, no cheating! No cheating!
Okay, I can tell you it was Star Wars, Episode 6, Return of the Jedi.
And another one in the top 3 was Flashdance!
KP:
That's in your top 10 Andrew isn't it?
CT:
His favorite film of all time!
AMD:
Okay I wouldn't go quite that far.
CT:
I was also looking up, and trying to find, let's see where have I got it, the top chart topper of that time, can you guess?
KP:
Wham!
CT:
Not far off. Not bad, not bad, not quite but not bad. Begins with 'c'.
KP:
Culture Club.
CT:
Yes! But can you can you guess the song?
KP:
Karma Chameleon.
CT:
That's exactly it yeah well done, very good.
KP:
I remember that was our 6th form disco.
AMD:
You're not going to tell us anymore about the 6th form disco?
KP:
No, you don't want to know!
CT:
Very good, so Kath, I've come to you, so we'll start with the charts, what was the chart topper, no cheating, chart topper in 1991? And I think you joined well in July right, you said?
KP:
Yeah, I'm not good with the 90s stuff. Take that?
CT:
Not quite, Andrew? Any ideas?
AMD:
No, I've no attachment to music after the 80s.
KP:
What does it start with Chris? It's not Oasis is it?
CT
I'll give you a hint it was based on a very, both of your guesses are a little bit further forward, it's based on a big, big film of that year.
KP:
Robin Hood.
CT:
Right, and I believe it may still be the biggest, top selling single all the time!?
KP:
Bryan Adams, and yes it is.
CT:
Yeah, 'Everything I do, I do it for you I do it for you.' So, off the back of that top chart topping film in the UK was?
KP:
Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves.
CT:
Correct, correct. But, around the world it was slightly different, it was, 'Terminator 2: Judgment Day', very pertinent today because of artificial intelligence.
KP:
That's appropriate for today.
CT:
Exactly, it all fits in. Perfect timing. Right okay, so think back for me, what what was it like entering the office in 1983? Can you remember? Which office was it that you entered as a fresh-faced trainee?
AMD:
I was in number 15, in Oxford, across the road. We had offices on both sides of the road at that time. I was working with Norman Sawyer, and the rooms we were in were in the basement.
CT:
Under the street basically, yeah okay, you have any sunlight getting down there?
AMD:
Not an awful lot, it was it was cold in the winter, but it was also cool in the summer.
CT:
So you weren't topping up the tan down there Andrew?
AMD:
I definitely wasn't, no.
CT:
What was the work like back then, compared to now? Presumably it was all paper and pen based right?
AMD:
There was either no computer, or only one computer, in the firm when I started, and yes it was all done paper and pen. You weren't supposed to add up on a calculator, but I very quickly tossed that to one side because it's so much quicker. It's more efficient, you get it done quicker.
CT:
Use of Technology, yes I like it. Okay, so what happens if you made a mistake? So if you were paper and pen and you made a mistake, what did you have to do start all over again, tippex it out?
AMD:
You could spend, with a with a big client, with a sales ledger and purchase ledger you could spend a whole day adding it up get to the end, find out that it didn't balance and then you had to work out where it was, and potentially spend a whole day going back through it. So it was a question of making sure you were in a quiet room. That full day's work is something that is now done on a computer in 30 seconds, and the computer never gets it wrong!
CT:
Wow! Depends on who is entering it into the computer, right?
AMD:
No, it will always add up with a computer but I I used to be quite good at it, and I learned the hard way because you didn't have to spend an extra day going through it again to make sure you concentrate on getting it right. I could usually find a quiet space to get it done, get it right first time, and that was a really good feeling,
CT:
Your career spans the rise, the beginning of of digitisation!?
AMD:
Yes.
AMD:
This is where digital started coming in in the 80s, a bit more in the 90s, and then really seemed to fly, sort o,f from 2000 onwards particularly with, you know, the internet. So, I thought your careers both of them are quite interesting in that regard. Now, Kath you started, as I understand it, you started in London right? And what was it like amidst Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves mania? Walking into the London office, what presented itself to you as a trainee?
KP:
I was really excited because our offices at the time were in Soho Square, so super trendy, really nice part of London, until of course I got to there because I hadn't been to the office. I had my interview in Oxford right, so I was expecting, you know, glamor, and I got sort of quite dark damp offices on the fourth floor of I think it was 22. You remember Andrew?
AMD:
I can't remember the number.
KP:
Yeah I was a bit older because I've been to University, done Geography and Sociology. I wasn't intending to be a teacher, done a few things, gone traveling. So, I was nearly 26 when I started.
CT:
Where had you traveled to?
KP:
I'd done the kibbutz in Israel for a few months, you know, classic and went to stay with my brother when he was in Cyprus, just got the boat across, and then came home. Worked in a pub for a while to raise some money and went off to America, and Canada. So, when I got back Eddie, who's my brother working in the Oxford office with Andrew, said that they were looking for a trainee in the London office. My first thought was, no way! I'm not going to be an accountant!
CT:
Isn't that what most accountants say?
KP:
Well you can see why when Andrew describes what the work used to be like.But obviously I changed my mind, and it was great actually, there's Sharon Cruikshank who is still with us, my trainer, she taught me everything I know. Carmini who still works with us, she was there. Neil Beck, who went on to be the Managing Partner, he was my sort of manager, my main boss.
He was a manager at the time, he just qualified I think and he'd just been sent up to run the London office with the help of some of the partners from Oxford. Because I think we'd just bought a small firm Soho Square, taken it over in 1989!
I then came in in 1991 as the first sort of Wellers employee and it just went from there. It was a good time to join, I think, because Neil was out and about trying to get new clients and trying to make the whole thing take off, and it did!
CT
If I think correctly, you both joined the firm kind of in the middle of recessions right?
KP:
Yes.
CT:
I don't think 1983 was particularly good, I mean I don't remember it very well because I was about 2 at the time, Andrew!
AMD:
Yeah, very good.
CT:
But 1991 I remember very well, and that was definitely in the middle of a recession then.
KP:
It was.
CT
So, you did very well just to be in employment was an achievement!
KP:
Well that's why I took the job, because I couldn't get anything else, not being mean!
CT:
Sell it Kath! Sell the dream.
KP:
No, I was I was trying to get back into houses, I was trying to get back into the housing world because I was a homeless, sort of, housing officer, but there was just nothing. So I think it was actually my Dad, he said you better take that job.
CT:
So thus began the beginning of a, sort of, family business because you mentioned your brother earlier, Eddie, he's presumably by this stage, he was a long time a partner by now?
KP:
Yeah he was a partner, I can't remember, but he was a partner before you Andrew?
AMD:
He was yes.
KP:
I think Eddie started in 1973, straight from school pretty much, and he I don't think he took his time qualifying, because he was too busy partying.
AMD:
that's an understatement!
KP:
I think he became a Partner in 1986.
AMD:
Yeah I was a year or two after him.
KP:
He retired 2 years ago after 47 years but we didn't really work together that much for 20 odd years because I was in London he was in Oxford. It was only really the last 10 years we worked more closely together which was nice.
CT:
So Andrew you you'd obviously started in 1983, by what 1988, or 1989 you're a partner?
AMD:
Yeah.
CT:
Tell me about your rise up the ranks?
AMD:
I was quite lucky, I passed all the exams first time.
KP:
Show off.
AMD:
And I was a sucker for punishment having done the Chartered Accountants exams, I went on and did the tax exams. That was that was very interesting and it's stood me in good stead over the years.
CT
You're you're upskilling helped your promotion?
AMD:
Yes, I nearly left after I did the tax exams and then didn't. And fortunately I think because of the place I'd gone to get an offer from was Arthur Anderson! You get very pigeonholed into some of these big organisations and it would have been narrowly focused in one area. And it meant traveling to Reading which isn't as bad as traveling to London I suppose. I worked out that I was better staying put.
KP:
Did someone persuade you to stay Andrew?
AMD:
Yes.
KP:
Who was it? Probably Norman was it? Brian?
AMD:
Probably yeah, Norman, Brian had a word in my ear.
KP:
Well that's something we've got in common then because I handed in my notice when I qualified.
CT:
Oh my goodness it's all coming out now folks!
KP:
I know! It's fairly standard though isn't it. You see it when you qualify and you think, I'm going to go and see what else is out there.
CT:
Was that your motivation Andrew, when you qualified?
AMD:
Well I qualified and I got an offer, I wanted to buy a bigger house etc etc. I had thought about going to Papua New Guinea, or somewhere like that, to do tax.
CT:
Wow okay, right okay, interesting.
AMD:
But then somewhere a bit closer, but I'm glad I stayed.
KP:
You should mention your dad as well Andrew.
CT:
Well that was my next question my next question, because the Parkers aren't the only family business so to speak?
AMD:
My dad was a partner when I joined, and he retired, and then 12 months after that I became a partner.
CT:
He was managing partner as well right?
AMD:
Yes it wasn't quite the same in those days. So senior partner.
CT:
Can you can you explain exactly how different it was, or why it was different, I'm curious now?
AMD:
The whole thing was different, it's more, it's a bit more democratic now than it used to be. It used to be a little bit more autocratic, perhaps he was probably just the oldest, been there the longest. When I first started everybody addressed all the partners as Mr Dore, and Mr Honey etc etc and again I very quickly moved that on
CT:
You had no problems remembering people's surnames then Andrew?
AMD:
No I just went for Christian names, I was a rebel.
CT:
And still made.
AMD:
And to this day I get upset if people call me Mr Dore. So every now and then you get a new a new client, and you're talking to them, and they call you Mr Dore and I say don't do that, it just makes me feel old. Informal is better.
CT:
Okay so we got a little bit of your rise up the ranks Andrew, how about yours Kath? You stayed in London presumably throughout the 1990s, tell me more, what happened? Obviously you could balance the sheets, you know, the books as well? Presumably that's pen and paper?
KP:
I wasn't a natural okay, I didn't pass all my exams first time, in fact my last exam I got 50 on the dot and just scraped through.
AMD:
A pass is a pass.
KP:
But I did qualify in 1996 and I think it was just good timing because we moved to Grosvenor Square. Well, we were in Poland Street for a while, which was fantastic, that was right in the heart of Soho. Then we moved to Grosvenor Street. We were just out and about, we were modernising, the work was getting less number crunching if you like. We were spending more time actually talking to clients and helping them, training the other staff, which always helps your own progression, and growing the team that was the really fun bit.
We went from, I think there was 7 of us when I started in 1991. and that was probably 25 by the time I qualified.
CT:
Had there been another merger in that time frame then?
KP:
No, we took over a firm in, I think it was 2000 wasn't it Andrew?
AMD:
Yeah I think it was because it was around the same time as Thame.
KP:
That's right, we took over a firm, and that was just before I became a partner. That's when we moved to Victoria.
CT:
You became a partner in...
KP:
1999, it happened just after I became a partner. But I was a salaried partner so I wasn't involved in the year takeover talks.
CT:
Are you alluding to this hierarchy that Andrew was talking about earlier right?
KP:
It was very different then, you were you really allowed into parts of the partners meetings. Various things weren't discussed with the junior Partners around so that's it was a clear structure then definitely.
CT:
Andrew was in these meetings.
AMD:
I was, I was in the meetings and I I did the due diligence on the merger with Neil.
CT:
Uh okay, interesting.
KP:
Andrew was one of the partners telling me I had to leave when certain things came up on in Partners meetings.
CT:
He still does!
KP:
I can't have her listening to that.
AMD:
She can't be privy to this.
CT:
Oh my goodness, okay, right so Thame was around 2001 as well did you say Andrew?
AMD:
No Thame was August 2000.
CT:
And this other one in London's around that sort of time as well?
AMD:
It's a bit later in the year.
KP:
Yeah I think we've moved in quite close to Christmas didn't we. We moved into their offices in Victoria, they had room for all of us.
AMD:
Our lease on the other place was just running out. We got the deal away just in time from one office to the other, just as the lease expired. It was good, it killed 2 birds with 1 stone.
KP:
It was good because it's just found the corner from Buckingham Palace, really nice location, lovely townhouse building.
CT:
Yes, yes, I think I know who you mean. So Kathy you're a bit of a trailblazer, so whilst you weren't the first female partner, you eventually become the first female Managing Partner. What can you tell us about that? What it's been like in that guise, in that role, being a female coming through in a professional firm? Obviously things have changed a lot since the early 1990s.
KP:
Yeah, I think my experience was very different to I think it was Angela and Lorraine and Margaret. There were 3 female Partners when I joined which was actually quite a high percentage back in the day. I think Wellers was quite modern in that sense and a lot of the other firms certainly in Oxfordshire were all male at that time I think.
CT:
So trailblazing even then in that regard?
KP:
I think Wellers was so yeah, definitely, and they were senior Partners weren't they? Angela and Lorraine certainly were by the time I became a partner. To be honest I didn't really see it as a thing, I think London had changed then, the networking world had changed, it was very much more diverse than it would have been.
I used to actually see a big difference when I went to things in Oxford, I thought Oxford as a business community was a little bit behind London at that time. But I never felt it was a an issue, I never felt it was a problem with clients. I think it's more age clients always like to think when when an outgoing partner is replaced, that they're not getting somebody wet behind the ears and somebody young.
So I think that was probably more of a hindrance than the fact I was a woman. I could see it changing and the lawyers seem to be a little bit behind at the time. A lot of the legal practices at the time were still very male dominated and that's gone completely the other way. I think female lawyers now are the dominant, probably 55% - 60% of the industry.
But accountancy is, yeah, it was a meritocracy as far as I was concerned if you were good enough then it was there for you.
CT:
So you didn't even think about it, you just did it?
KP:
I didn't have children, so that could have changed things because I think when you have to step out for a period of time things can move on quite quickly. So I I do think that was probably a factor as well, but having said that Angela went and had 2 children, and Lorraine had a daughter, and they came back and it was all all good.
CT:
Was one of those 2 the first female Partner at Wellers? Or, do we have some before then?
KP
I think it was probably Margaret because she was made a partner with Eddie.
CT:
Right so you're going back sort of mid 1980s, right okay.
KP:
No sorry, Lorraine and Angela were made partners with Eddie weren't they? I'm sure there was 5 or 6 Partners made at the same time.
AMD:
Yeah, I think Margaret came in with that group.
KP:
So, there were 3 female Partners all at once when Eddie was made a partner in the mid 1980s
CT
It really was trailblazing stuff in the 1980s!
KP:
It made the front page of the Oxford Mail.
CT:
We've got to try and fine that somewhere.
KP:
I'm not sure if it was because they were all women but there were all sort of hand in hand going down the High Street. The 6 new partners or 5 new partners, whatever it was.
CT:
We've got to find that! There must be something somewhere.
KP:
Eddie's got it, I'm sure he has a copy of it.
Chris
I feel like this chat is giving me quite a good basis for a you know a history of Wellers on the website. I've got bits but I need more and this is a great great starting point for more of that. So for you women in the workforce wasn't a thing, you just plowed on as if your achievements, your successes, and your relationships with clients would do it, and they did.
When did Wellers start taking on IT and computers? Because that's a massive thing, I'm guessing 1996/97?
AMD:
Yeah it started slowly and then just snowballed.
CT:
How did that work? Was it just one in the office, and one person could use it at a time?
AMD:
So initially there was just one, and then there were more computers, in computer rooms, where you could go and you get on a computer if one was free. Then the rooms were networked within the room, and then the two networks were joined, and then distributed computers...
CT:
Between the offices?
AMD:
Oh no, it was it was within just the office, each office. Each office was discreet and then clearly eventually as the internet got better, we were we were able to link all the offices.
KP:
I remember we won quite a big client in London, and I think that was about 2000, and they were asking for email addresses! and I remember saying to Neil what's an email?
CT
What's that, ha yeah!?
KP:
And he said well we have set one up and it was like info at Wellers accountants or, Wellers London, or something. So, I was able to say to this client, you know, we've got an email just send it. I didn't have a clue what I was talking about but within a year it was just all change wasn't it? We had to, we had to move, because the clients were starting to say you know this is how we want to deliver our information.
AMD:
But before before the internet we had the fax.
CT:
Yes! Did you have pagers as well? Did you have the old pagers, did you have them?
AMD:
No. The fax machine made a massive change. So, previously a client could ring and say have you done the work? Oh yeah, the letter's in the queue. And then it was, oh great can you fax it? Whereas previously you could buy yourself a couple of days and then the fax just revolutionised it.
CT:
Time pressure's, and timelines.
AMD:
And then obviously email now is just instant, and people think you've got nothing to do but reply to their email before they push send. It's almost real time nowadays.
CT:
An always on world that started...
KP
It's interesting thinking about the competing pressures isn't it, there's lots of things where I wish I was starting my career now that so much better. You know the work-life balance, the agile working, the technology. On the other hand the technology is something I don't envy them on, it impacts on every aspect of your life, doesn't it, because you've always got your phone with you, you've always got WhatsApp messages, you've got so many different ways now of people contacting you. It can be quite, I can imagine if you're young, and you're studying, and you've got exams as well it can all be a bit overwhelming.
AMD:
And you've got so many things on the go at once, whereas if you go back to me locking myself away in a quiet room to think out the nominal ledger and the sales ledger etc etc then I'm concentrating on that one job whereas nowadays you can have three or four big jobs like that going simultaneously. All the stuff that used to take the time is done instantly. As well as having those jobs on the go you've got people phoning you, and emails etc etc. No faxes anymore but yeah it's it's completely different now than it used to be. What used to take days is done instantly. Its a lot quicker.
CT:
If we, if I take you back, so we've sort of got to the 2000s I I assume it's somewhere around there, that you start or maybe even slightly before, late 1990s, that you start getting the desktop software. Now, young people go what on Earth is desktop software? Because they're just used everything online. So, software that is based purely, or downloaded onto a what was a computer. Then I think laptops are still a little bit further away or coming in in the late 1990s, weren't they mid or late 1990s? So when I think about that when when did you first start experiencing or using things like Sage?
KP:
Well, the first big drama, do you remember the lead up to the year 2000 Andrew?
CT:
Oh yes, with those zeros!
KP:
OMG, the world is going to come to an end, nothing's going to work!
AMD:
There was a law that said you had to have a millennium bug policy, so I did ours and it was, we've still got the computers downstairs, we've still got the typing machines downstairs, if the computers don't work we can do it manually and type the accounts up. It was quite a brief document.
KP:
We had some Consultants, some IT Consultants at the time, a couple of South Africans and Australians. They were earning a fortune and all on the basis of this scaremongering, that you know everything's kind of changed and everything was going to collapse. It's amazing really when you look back.
AMD:
I think we were all waiting for the planes to fall out of the sky and all sorts, and nothing happened.
CT:
Yes they said that literally planes would drop out of the sky. That was the rumour.
AMD:
I think in in China the head of the Chinese Aviation Authority he was told he needed to be in the air at midnight.
CT:
What to get rid of him!?
AMD:
No, no you've been you've been responsible for making sure that our planes aren't going to fall out if the sky, you're going to be in the air.
CT:
So okay that was the millennium, for context I was 19 at the time, starting University. I remember it well and I remember, I think it was the in London they said that there was going to be a river of fire on the New Year which didn't quite materialise as I recall it.
KP:
Only from the fireworks!
CT:
Yeah exactly a lot of smoke. So Sage was coming in around this time because I think isn't this the rise of Sage where almost every business ended up with this desktop software?
AMD:
Yes.
CT:
This was this was their big moment, their big driving moment right?
AMD:
So I think Sage was first available when we were on DOS and then...
CT:
That's going back to sort of 1980s early 1990s I remember. DOS commands, the black screen and the commands.
AMD:
Oh absolutely, and I refused to move away from DOS.
CT:
You loved that didn't you Andrew?
AMD:
I refused to do Windows 3.1 because I couldn't get on with the graphic user interface. Then eventually there was something in Excel that I couldn't do in the Dos equivalent. I had to bite the bullet, but I hated it.
CT:
Okay so DOS takes us to what, sort of late 1980s ish, then there's Windows 3.1 that you alluded to which is a graphical user interface. I think this is where Apple starts to rise as well, as they copy the user interface, well do their own version of it and they start interacting with Microsoft products. I think they do a deal from memory, and then in 1995 you've got Windows 95. That's a big moment. I think the controversial bit there was that you had Windows 95 that connected to, or made you have to use Internet Explorer, which was a Microsoft product.
They sort of got away with that for 5 years and then there's some sort of huge court case between the US government and Microsoft about the fact that you could only use Internet Explorer with Microsoft operating system Windows. I think Bill Gates gets a bit sort of torn apart in court because he's not used to answering questions from other people and that's the sort of the beginnings of the breakup of Microsoft.
Sorry I've gone on a tangent here to the history of...
KP:
You won't be surprised Chris that all of that just went right over my head. I used to ring Andrew and ask him, how do I turn it on?
CT:
Windows what?
KP:
That's how I got through my whole career, 'Andrew'?
CT:
At what point in all of this, with all this going on, there's a massive change, huge amount, this is digitization happening on your watch as you're living it. At what point Andrew did you start taking over the IT at Wellers? Because you you eventually became head of IT, not just partner?
KP:
In 2000 I reckon.
AMD:
That sounds about right. So, the computers were all in one room and it was me that then actually daisy chained them and then joined the two rooms up in Oxford.
KP:
Shout out to Dave Gardner as Deputy, glamorous assistant.
AMD:
We do all the wiring and everything so the cabling for the network cables etc.
CT:
So this is why he's got a room full of IT cables.
AMD:
Not electric cables, it's the computer cables.
CT:
All the old stuff yes.
AMD:
There was some drilling through walls and stuff to get the cable runs away because this is a very old building and there are some quite thick walls.
CT:
There's a bit of DIY-IT going on at this time.
AMD:
It was yeah, and it was a bit Heath Robinson a little bit bodged I suppose but it didn't fall over. Then clearly each of the officers had their own computer arrangements and then as I the internet improved. We were able to link all of the sites.
CT:
I don't know if you guys can see this but I've somehow Matt, one of the partners here, he found an old advert from 1989 I don't know if you can see, I've got it the wrong way around, can you see that yeah, the old logo and some sort of advert about tax and helping people with their tax.
I presume that logo, probably didn't come up very well on screen, but I presume that logo stood the test of time, for quite some time?
AMD:
Yeah, we were we were too mean to do anything with it. That was developed in-house and it was meant to look like a barred gate, with sort of nod towards farming clients.
KP:
Classic accounting there wasn't it, gray and blue. Does what it says on the tin, and that didn't actually change until about 2005 or 2006. So it we did sort of take quite a brave big step there because we went from blue and grey block letters, very traditional, to business oxygen. Bright colors, bubbles.
CT:
When did that come in, 2007?
AMD:
Yeah because it was post KBDL isn't it?
KP:
Yeah I would say so.
CT:
KBDL?
AMD:
A group of partners that left around about 2005.
KP:
It first time we ever really used a marketing consultant.
CT:
And you regretted it ever since, eh?
KP:
No it was brilliant.
CT:
Andrew's nodding, yes, yes.
KP:
I think the business oxygen strapline helped us to explain what we do a lot better than we might have imagined at the time.
AMD:
And stand out it was yeah, it was quite forward.
KP:
I had a few clients a few of the older clients say, why are you sending me party invitations? When we first wrote to them on the new headed paper.
CT:
They like balloons.
KP:
Yeah, yeah but generally I think it went down quite well.
CT:
Didn't you guys hold a a bit of a sort of brand relaunch from memory? Wasn't there a terrace somewhere that you hired out and had clients over and stuff?
KP:
Yeah I think it was Soho club in Soho, funnily enough! Soho house. We had a big rebrand, a relaunch. I think it was there but yeah I would say
CT:
Okay so, software is really kicking in now we're well hooked up to the net, is this the sort of time period when time recording really starts coming into its own?
AMD:
Time recording was with us always!
CT:
I know but I'm thinking about more sort of real time entering it in as you go along kind of recording. Or not?
KP:
I think it's a bit later than that wasn't it?
AMD:
I can't remember when we ceased being paper-based with time recording.
KP:
I don't think it was until we got CCH so it's about 2010 or 2011.
CT:
I can tell you when I when I joined in August 2011 there was definitely no paper-based time recording.
KP:
Yeah I think it was 2010/11.
AMD:
Well no there was something with CBSL that was computerised before that.
KP:
It was in between wasn't it?
AMD:
But when I started it was recorded in a diary, and then transfer it from the diary onto a timesheet. Timesheet submitted monthly, timesheet goes off the computer bureau.
CT:
One of those timesheets that you did that sort of to it (gesticulates downward pressing motion), one of them?
KP:
I found my first diary, it's hilarious.
CT:
You found your first diary?
KP:
I think I've got it at home, like I thought I can't chuck that away now. I think I just put training for the first day. Making coffees, 6 units, and sandwiches for the partners even 6 units.
CT:
Even down to units back then?
AMD:
Oh yeah. They were 15 minutes units at that stage. So 6 fifteen minutes units that's a hell of a lot of tea she's claiming to have made.
CT:
A lot of tea!Lots of cups of tea.
Okay so all that takes us to the the crash, the financial crash, 2007/08. What was it like to live through that because that was a momentous thing, it was a banking crash, almost suggested the whole money markets might freeze up completely? That's an issue for clients who might be looking to raise money, all these sorts of things, accessing their bank accounts, all big question marks suddenly just popping up everywhere! What was it like to live through that, can you remember it?
AMD:
It was unusual, and it didn't have catastrophic effects on our client base, although one company that I was working on, their facility closed down overnight. It just struck me well, if that happens left, right, and centre, then that will just destroy the economy.
KP:
I think there was a few weeks of quite nervous waiting to see how everyone react. There were queues around the bank in Northern Rock. Yeah you all go back to the 1920s and think are we really going, but it's settled down quite quickly didn't it? I think we actually, I think the Bank of England did actually react quite quite well, and reassured everybody, and I don't think it was actually as impactful as Brexit really in 2016. That was quite a scary time as well, wasn't it?
CT:
That just continued on, and on, didn't it? That was a big debate that went on for ages and a shock result.
KP:
Nothing like the last few years you know, we we used to have a challenge every few years with things you know interest rates, recessions. The last 3 or 4 years it's been one thing after another with wars, and pandemics, and cost of living crisis.
CT
Yeah because I mean you've both you've lived through a lot. I was thinking container shipping was a massive thing that really came to fruition in the 1970s and 1980s, so that's very much in your time Andrew. Then I'm thinking to the 1990s I can remember as a kid walking around and it's Cheltenham High Street and I don't know why but I think it's been pointed out to me my one of my parents that you know look at these rates for mortgages and there's like 17%, yes 17%! It's eye watering even by today's standards.
But yeah, you've lived through all of that, and then rates from there almost collapsing at one stage.
KP:
I think when Eddie first became a partner interest rates were 17% and the top rate of income tax was 98%. People just don't believe that.
AMD:
So with that top right of income tax, it could exceed 100% under some circumstances.
KP:
Not Elton John, he refused to leave didn't he? Him and Rod Stewart fell out because Rod Stewart left the country, Tom Jones left the country, a lot of top entertainers just moved away immediately. I don't think it was for very long that they were at those rates. It was definitely 1974.
AMD:
That was Denis Healey wasn't it, and then Nigel Lawson shocked everybody by bringing the top rate down to 40%. I can't quite remember when that was.
KP:
I think is the highest rate we've seen 50%? I don't remember anything over and above that.
CT:
Did Lawson cut some tax bands as well?
AMD:
He cut some, he completely changed the shape of tax.
CT:
So in all, you've seen a few chancellors, and obviously they have a fair impact on your work and in your role, favorite Chancellor?
KP:
You're having a laugh aren't you?
CT:
Could there be one?
AMD:
Probably Lawson because he took the top rate of tax right down to 40%. That was a very bold move.
KP:
Who put Entrepreneurs' Relief up to £10 million, Andrew? can you remember?
AMD:
No. I don't I don't like Chancellors of the Exchequer full stop, because they keep changing the rules. And so when when I did the tax exams, you you get to take the legislation in with you. When I did them there were 2 books, big books, and now the same legislation there's 7 or 8 books, big books.
CT:
You're taking a suitcase in with you!
AMD:
Yeah and not only they're about the same size physically however, the paper is thinner and the font is smaller. We've got an absolute mass of tax legislation and some of it's well written, some of it's completely and utterly impenetrable.
I can remember once doing something with someone that was between USA and the UK and talking to the USA tax guy, and it was an inheritance tax thing and he said oh I hear what you're saying I'll send you my legislation, and so he sent through a paragraph of legislation in normal English, it was dead easy to understand. Then I had the embarrassment of sending him over two pages of absolute tortuous legislation. That was the stuff I was dealing with I'm thinking God I wish I was a tax accountant in the USA, not in the UK.
KP:
That's one of the benefits of only having a small amount of history, yeah if you look at our 6th April tax date, what a load of nonsense. We are talking a thousand years of legislation aren't we?
AMD:
Well they've consolidated it.
KP:
But they've never made it, I mean I've got to say I think these states is probably as complicated as us now, because of all the different state laws. That's an impossible question to answer Chris, favourite Chancellor! Helmut Kohl!
CT:
A hiding to nothing. But he almost would have been our Chancellor at one stage because weren't we pegging our rates to the Deutsche Mark in the early 1990s, I can't remember when exactly.
KP
George Osborne introduced the £10m entrepreneurs' relief. That was a very nice one. Unfortunately now it's ended.
CT:
So, if the tax system was a book, if it was all like one book, I know obviously you say that's impossible Andrew, and I totally get it, but if it was all in one book, I think it would be something it would contain something like over 11 million words! 11 Million words apparently is more than the average human being reads in their entire lifetime. Random fact !
KP:
And a third of them are probably 'no you can't' text.
CT:
Who would want to?
AMD:
We'll get you if you do this!
KP:
Legislation says no!
CT:
Okay so Kath, you became Managing Partner, you took over from Neil Beck in 2013 right?
KP:
Yeah.
CT:
How was that, think back to that, I mean it's 10 years ago and I remember you calling me in to your office and saying I'm going to be Managing Partner. I was like, oh okay, right here we go!
KP:
Yeah, it's a whirlwind, first female Managing Partner, I think Neil left everything in pretty good condition, introduced a lot of new things, modernised us.
I think we had our values in place by then so it was certainly just a case of carrying on, and carrying on his good work.
CT:
I can remember you coming around sticking the values various walls and seeing them going up.
KP:
Well I think the big change was culturally you know. Like every business, we've had to modernise, we've had to focus on our people more, and and just general positivity, rather than negativity and I think that's stood us in good stead.
CT:
You're in the role from 2013 to...
KP:
End of 2018 I think.
CT
I was going to say end of 17, okay end of 18.
KP:
I think so I could be wrong.
CT:
A good 5 years.
KP:
It was 5 years definitely because I thought that was enough. We always said 5 years should really be the term and then passing on somebody else, which was another women which was great.
CT:
Any highlights?
KP:
Any big highlights? I can't really think of any, not specific, they're all too general you know you can talk about embedding the culture and improving things.
CT:
Staff days came in around about this time.
KP:
Yes, it's improving the things that are not statistical, or not you can't add them up, and count them up and say, which is obviously what accountants do. It was more just around retention and development.
CT:
The stuff that contributes to those measurements.
KP:
I think with all those things we've always been good, haven't we, internal promotion and so many of the partners joined as trainees, and have come through, and it was building on what was already quite a good business model, and people model, and just making us fit really for the future proofing.
AMD:
Everything evolved and improved along the way. It wasn't big step changes but it was always moving forward,always getting better, moving in the right direction. So not necessarily you know massive jump from A to B but if you look across the piece we had evolved through that period and continue to evolve and improve.
KP:
Yeah and using people that are experts you know to help us with our contribution models, and HR, yourself as the first non-accounting partner (Chris) bringing fresh ideas, bringing new ways of looking at things. I think that's all of those things have helped move us forward.
CT:
Appreciate it, I guess I could talk to you guys all day, and all night, about this stuff because it's fascinating. I just think the fact that you you brought the firm through this, into this digital age, with massive transformation, is remarkable and that you lived through the workforce, the beginnings of it. I was born into the beginning of digital so I have a bit of a memory of analogue and digital so that'd probably be one of the last generations but I didn't work through that necessarily.
I have two more points that I'll cover off with you, and then and we'll call it a day.
Legacy, what what is Legacy for you guys?
Big question granted.
AMD:
It's a great firm, with great people, great bunch of Partners, and great staff.
Happy place, it's a good place, we help one another, and we help our clients, that's Legacy.
CT:
Very well said.
KP:
Very well said, I can't add to that.
CT:
Hard to isn't it.
KP:
Yeah, we want to see that continue, the improvements to continue which I'm sure they will and everybody's pulling in the same direction. Very close-knit partner team, a lot of really key, long-standing staff and some great clients that have been very loyal and yeah, long may it continue.
CT:
So the technology and all those sorts of outside things, they might change, but that doesn't matter, so long as the culture of helping each other, helping clients, so long as that ethos remains it doesn't matter what's going on externally we are the drivers of our own fate in that regard.
KP:
That's right!
AMD:
One other thing, we decided as a partner group, a long time ago, but it needs to be fun. It has to be fun and I'm sure that will continue, and I think it is a very important thing because we all spend a lot of time at work. If it's miserable, that's not that good. I like don't think healthy if you're not enjoying it. So I'm sure the partners will continue to have fun, and continue to create a fun environment.
KP:
They won't be able to take the mickey out of us Andrew. Who are they going to pick on that about?
CT:
IT expert Kath.
KP
That's the joke all the time.
What are they going to do without us?
They'll have to get a new, Simon, watch your back.
CT:
Yeah, Simon Smith, head of IT in Banbury.
KP:
Somebody else has got to be the butt of the jokes now.
CT
Okay so that's next, what does the future hold for you individually?
AMD:
I haven't worked it out yet really.
A bit more travel, and spend time with the family. I think when Pam gives me a list of things that I need to get done, I'll probably be back in here asking for a job.
KP:
What on Monday?
AMD:
Yeah, quite apprehensive it has to be said. I'll be offering to work for free.
CT:
And you Kath?
KP:
Same as Andrew really, family, travel, read some of those books that have been on my list for a long time, re-reading some books still at home waiting on my shelf. Go and see sporting events hopefully.
CT:
I'm sure, you're staying connected to us, you're still both consultants so we're going to see plenty of you going forward. It's not a total goodbye. Any particular destinations you're both looking to get to around the world? Cruises maybe, around the world cruises? South American cruises?
KP:
Not Cruise, no, I definitely want to go back to South America.
Despite what's going on at the cricket today, I'd still like to get to the ashes in Australia.
I'd like to see England actually in a tournament somewhere in football.
CT:
Football yeah, okay next World Cup then not far away?
KP:
America and Canada, isn't it, and Mexico.
CT:
Is that right?
KP:
Okay yeah we've got to qualify first, but that'd be quite good actually.
CT:
I think that'd be a good one, yeah good good one to go to. yeah yeah
AMD:
It could be a lot of travel involved.
CT:
See a fair bit the states and Mexico. All right folks I've taken up enough of your time I really appreciate that. I think there's actually some really amazing and interesting history in there, your careers are fascinating so um I think on behalf of everyone here at Wellers I'll say enormous thank you and personally as well, to both of you, a massive thank you.
Rreally appreciate your time and input, and the fact you were willing to listen to my crazy ideas on occasion. And just to wish you all the very best going forward. But I know that we'll see plenty of you and really looking forward to seeing what the future holds for you, and with us going forward. So it's time for a drink I think, a little drink, yes, today is the day we've actually done this interview on the day.
It's almost time for drinks time.
KP:
Bit more fun to be had yet Andrew!
CT:
Plenty more drinks eh Andrew!
AMD:
Not too many, we'll see.
Easily lead astray, that's my problem! Cheers Chris.
KP:
Stick to the halves Andrew.
AMD:
I'll do that.
CT:
Appreciate it folks, well done.
The content of this post was created on 27/07/2023.
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